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Ruben

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  1. Ochen' poetichno... A chto vam daet osnovania dumat', chto dlia armian menee vajno uslishat' ot kogo libo iz vas "скорбь по поводу того что сотворили его соплеменники " v 1895-1923, v tom je Sumgaite, Shaumiane, Baku ... Poprobuite sdelat' eto sami, a tam, gliadish', vasha pervaia mechta i osuschestvit'sia. Ruben
  2. Ну почему же переврали просто указали нижний предел, видно что и в самой Британике есть противоречия по этому вопросу. кстати интересно было бы проверить вот этот источник английский альманах 1917 г., 1.056.000 (Каталог “Британника”, 1917 ) откуда эта цифра не волнуюсь и буду ждать Не знаю что Toynbee думал об османах часто бывает что в одном хвалят в другом ругают и не очень пойму как это можно точно вычислить количество населения не проводя переписи. ИнтПо моему разумению только перепись населения дает четкое представление, на глазок такие цифры не определяют. ересна методика подсчета этого Toynbee. Но в любом случае не думаю что Османы сами все заранее готовили тем более статистикой у них заправляли иностранцы. Да и зачем им нужно было занижать количество населения ведь каждый неучтенный человек это потеря в налогах. Вообщем час дам ссылку на этот форум человеку, который не профан как я, а разбирается в этом вопросе думаю он с вами подискутирует. Stracker, QUOTE]Ну почему же переврали просто указали нижний предел, видно что и в самой Британике есть противоречия по этому вопросу. Pojaluista, ne protivorechte zdravomu smyslu: v Britanice napisano: po takim to prichinam my priniali za ocenku 1.750 tys. V vashey stat'e Britanice pripisivaetsia vpolne konkretnaia cifra: 1.5 mln. Prichem tut nijnii predel? Eto nazivaetsia podtasovkoi. Pomite, delo ne v Britanice, svet na nei klinom ne soshelsia, ona toje mojet davat' nevernie svedenia. Problema v chistoplotnosti tekh kto ee citiruet. Deistvitel'no. A esli by tam deistvitel'no okazalas eta cifra, vy by priniali ee kak istinnoe kol-vo armian v Turcii, tol'ko potomu chto ona sovpadaet s istochnikom kotorii vam nravitsia? A s chego vy vziali chto eto rezul'tati perepisi? Esli ne oshibaius', tot je Toynbee utverjdaet chto v eto vremia perepisey ne bylo. Ia vam mogu nazvat' elementarnuiu prichinu: chem bol'she armian - tem bol'she problem s Evropoi iz-za trebovanii priniat' reformy oblegchaiuschie ikh polojenia. I uj upasi gospodi, esli v kakoi to oblasti oni predstavliaut bol'shinstvo. Tak i kakuiu to formu samoupravlenia mogut zatrebovat'. Kstati, nadeius' vam izvestno: odnim iz punktov Lozanskogo dogovora byla declaracia ob armianskom men'shistve v Turcii, estestvenno naviazannaia turkami i priniataia armianami, tak kak rech shla o sokhranenii nacii khotia by v predelakh Vostochnoi Armenii: a imenno: THERE IS NO ARMENIAN MINORITY IN TURKEY. Vot vam i otvet chto takoe statistika po-turecki. Starker, ssylku mojete dat', no, izvinite, mne eta discussia uje nadoela, slishkom mnogo vremeni otnimaet. Da i voobsche, tema kakaia to bessmislennaia: my sporim o tom, chto podtverjdaetsia massoi faktov, documentov, svidetel'stvami ochevidcev iz kotorikh mnogie k armianam voobsche otnoshenia ne imeiut. A vy, pitaetes' jongliruai chislami, tem bolee s tureckogo oficial'nogo saita, dokazat' chto chernoe - eto beloe. Zvuchit, kak esli by na sude ubiyca zaiavil sotne svidetelei prestuplenia, chto ego jertvy v prirode ne suschestvovalo, potomu chto v telephonnoi knige za takoi to god net ee imeni... Ponimaiu, chto vy svoiu tochku zrenia nikogda ne izmenite, eto mojet potrebovat' pereocenki samosoznania, liudi redko idut na takoe. No nadeius' chto kakoe to somnenie ia v vas zarodil (prostite esli ia naiven, vy proizvodite vpechatlenie chestnogo cheloveka). Mne nekotoroe vremia budet ne do foruma, Naposledok, esli vas deistvitel'no interesuet vopros vzaimootneshenia armian i turok (i ne tol'ko v kontexte genocida i karabakhskoi voiny), ochen' sovetuiu pochitat' samogo Toynbee, eto istorik s mirovim imenem, daje esli vy s nim ne soglasni, ego prosto interesno chitat'. K sojaleniu, ia nashel etot text tol'ko na angliiskom. http://www.hri.org/docs/bryce/bryce2.htm (a esli prochtete i zainteresuetes', pochemu eto Toynbee pisal na etu temu, zaglianite na http://www.hri.org/docs/bryce/bryce.htm, tam je daetsia klassifikacia dostovernosti razlichnikh svidetel'stv. Otvechat' na etot post ne stoit, u menia ne budet chtiat' etot forum. Prostite esli ton posta pokazalsia neskol'ko nastavitel'nim. Ruben PS chut' ne zabyl: chislo bejavshikh v vostochnuiu Armeniu v period WWI ~ 300.000, po podschetam Dadryana, chiu ssilku ia vam uje posilal. Kstati, nadeius' vy v kurse, uje posle WWI bylo vtorjenie turkov v Armianskuiu Respubliku, tak chto, to chto liudiam udalos' bejat' ot mladoturkov, esche ne oznachaet chto oni spaslis' ot kemalistov. Po ostal'nim stranam u menia bolee fragmentarnie dannie, no nabiraetsia primerno taka ia je cifra.
  3. Stracker, Vy imeete v vidy istochniki privodimie v stat'e. Zaivlenie ни в одном источнике slishkom sil'noe, ne tak li? K tomu je, perevrali daje Britanicu, uj chto govorit' o bolee trudnoproveriaemikh istochnikakh? Prostite, mne samomu interesno koe chto proverit', do togo kak otvetit' vam. Ia seichas ochen' zagrujen, net vremeni kopat'sia. No, raz interesno, prishliu, ne volnuites'. Cifry ne meniautsia. CD-versia 2002 nija, knijnaia - v attache. Khotite - prishliu esche francuzskuiu Universalis, tol'ko ona, estestvenno, na francuzskom. Kstati, ia vyiasnil otkuda poiavilas' cifra 600.000 jertv: eto issledovania A.Toynbee, doklad 1916go goda, opisivaet sobitia tol'ko 1915 goda!!! Ponimaete, o chem ia? Genocid prodoljals'ia do nachala 1923 goda, do Lozanskoi conferencii. Kto takoi Toynbee, nadeius' znaete, ottomanov on otniud' ne nenavidel, daje naoborot: sravnival ikh imperiu (pri ee rascvete) s "ideal'nim gosudarstvom" Platona. Ruben Ottoman Empire ->The empire from 1807 to 1920 -> Dissolution of the empire The people In 1914 the total population of the Ottoman Empire was approximately 25 million, of which about 10 million were Turks, 6 million Arabs, 1.5 million Kurds, 1.5 million Greeks, and between 1.5 million and 2 million Armenians. The population of the empire (excluding such virtually independent areas as Egypt, Romania, and Serbia) in the period immediately prior to the losses of 1878 is estimated to have been about 26 million. Natural increases and Muslim immigration from Russia and the Balkans virtually made up the losses, and in 1914 the population was increasingly homogeneous in religion and language, though a variety of languages continued to be spoken Armenia->History The greatest single disaster in the history of the Armenians came with the outbreak of World War I. In 1915 the Young Turk government resolved to deport the whole Armenian population of about 1,750,000 to Syria and Mesopotamia. It regarded the Turkish Armenians-despite pledges of loyalty by many-as a dangerous foreign element bent on conspiring with the pro-Christian tsarist enemy to upset the Ottoman campaign in the east. In what would later be known as the “first genocide” of the 20th century, hundreds of thousands of Armenians were driven from their homes, massacred, or marched until they died. The death toll of Armenians in Turkey has been estimated at between 600,000 and 1,500,000 in the years from 1915 to 1923. (See Researcher's Note: Armenian massacres.) Tens of thousands emigrated to Russia, Lebanon, Syria, France, and the United States, and the western part of the historical homeland of the Armenian people was emptied of Armenians. Researchers' Notes Armenian massacres Statistics are Спорed regarding the Armenian population in Ottoman Anatolia at the outbreak of World War I and the number of Armenians killed during deportation. The most disparate numbers have been promulgated by Turkish and Armenian sources; scholars agree that propaganda from both sides has greatly confounded the issue. No systematic census was taken in Turkey before 1927, although conflicting population statistics were variously reported by the Ottoman government, religious institutions such as the Armenian Patriarchate, and assorted European observers. In 1896 the Ottoman government recorded 1,144,000 Armenians out of a total Anatolian population of 13,241,000. In an examination of government statistics collected shortly before World War I, Justin McCarthy estimates that some 1,500,000 Armenians lived in Ottoman Anatolia in 1912 out of approximately 17,500,000 inhabitants. Various scholars cite the Armenian Patriarchate, which recorded from 1,845,000 to 2,100,000 Armenians in Anatolia prior to 1915. Other estimates range from as low as 1,000,000 to more than 3,500,000. Questions have been raised about the reliability of some local data; therefore, some preference has been given to data collected by European observers. One of the more renowned compilers of Western research, reports, and available data was Arnold J. Toynbee, who served during the war as an intelligence officer for the British Foreign Office. Toynbee calculated that some 1,800,000 Armenians had lived in Anatolia prior to the war. Taking into account the reports of Toynbee and other aforementioned sources, Britannica has taken the figure of 1,750,000 as a reasonable representation of the Armenian population in Anatolia prior to 1915. Also problematic are reports regarding the number of Armenians who died during deportation (1915-16). Estimates range widely--from 200,000 claimed by some Turkish sources to 2,000,000 claimed by some Armenians--although most scholars agree that the lack of death records makes a final determination impossible. The Turkish government repeats Talat Pasa's original claim that some 300,000 Armenians had died in deportation. As with the problem of the aforementioned population statistics, the subjectivity of some sources has caused greater value to be placed on the reports of European observers. Toynbee judges that some 600,000 Armenians died or were massacred during deportation, possibly 600,000 more survived in exile, and another 600,000 either escaped or went into hiding. By independent calculation, McCarthy has arrived at the same number of deaths, and many historians either cite Toynbee directly or provide similar estimates. Most histories of Armenia or Turkey make note of the Armenian massacres that occurred during World War I. Detailed treatments are given in the following works:Brief discussions or related data are given in numerous sources, such as those listed below: GERARD CHALIAND and YVES TERNON, The Armenians: From Genocide to Resistance (1983; originally published in French, 1980). KAMURAN GÜRÜN, The Armenian File: The Myth of Innocence Exposed (1985). JUSTIN McCARTHY, Muslims and Minorities: The Population of Ottoman Anatolia and the End of the Empire (1983). THE PERMANENT PEOPLE'S TRIBUNAL, A Crime of Silence, ed. by GERARD LIBARIDIAN, trans. from French (1985); includes “British Sources on the Armenian Massacres, 1915-1916” by Christopher J. Walker, “German Eyewitness Reports of the Genocide of the Armenians, 1915-1916” by T. Hofmann, “Report on the Genocide of the Armenians of the Ottoman Empire, 1915-1916” by Yves Ternon, and “The Turkish Argument: The Armenian Issue in Nine Questions and Answers” by the Foreign Policy Institute, Ankara.ARNOLD J. TOYNBEE (ed.), The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, 1915-16 (1916). YVES TERNON, The Armenians: History of a Genocide, 2nd ed. (1990; originally published in French, 1977). CHRISTOPHER J. WALKER, Armenia: The Survival of a Nation (1980). VINCENT HENRY PENALVER CAILLARD, “Turkey,” The Encyclopædia Britannica, 11th ed., vol. 27 (1911), p. 426. GLENN E. CURTIS (ed.), Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia: Country Studies (1995), pp. 14-15, 35. CAGLAR KEYDER, “The Political Economy of Turkish Democracy,” in PIRVIN C. SCHICK and ERTUGRUL AHMET TONAK (eds.), Turkey in Transition (1987), p. 31. LORD KINROSS (PATRICK BALFOUR, BARON KINROSS), The Ottoman Centuries (1977), pp. 554, 606. ANAT KURZ and ARIEL MERARI, ASALA--Irrational Terror or Political Tool (1985), pp. 11, 113. DAVID MARSHALL LANG, Armenia: Cradle of Civilization, 2nd ed., corrected (1978), p. 289. HARRIS M. LENTZ, III, Assassinations and Executions (1988), p. 45.BERNARD LEWIS, The Emergence of Modern Turkey, 2nd ed. (1968), p. 356. PAUL M. PITMAN, III (ed.), Turkey: A Country Study, 4th ed. (1988), pp. 37, 41. MINORITY RIGHTS GROUP (ed.), World Directory of Minorities (1990), p. 179.M. PHILIPS PRICE, A History of Turkey (1956), pp. 90-91. STANFORD SHAW and EZEL KURAL SHAW, History of the Ottoman Empire and Modern Turkey, vol. 2 (1977), p. 316. PETER YOUNG (ed.), The Marshall Cavendish Illustrated Encyclopedia of World War I, vol. 5 (1984), pp. 1322-23. ERIK J. ZÜRCHER, Turkey: A Modern History (1993), pp. 86-89, 119-121. Copyright © 1994-2002 Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.
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